00:00 Dave: Hello, and welcome to Australian Payments Plus Point of View, a podcast series that delves into the world of payments and examines the critical issue of trust. I'm Dave Ellett, Chief Commercial Officer at AP+, and today we'll examine what we mean by trust, why it is important at AP+ and the industry more broadly. We will be exploring the role trust plays at meeting expectations, operational excellence, communication, monitoring and response, and integrity. 

Today I'm joined by Chair of AP+, Catherine Brenner, and our CEO, Lynn Kraus. Welcome to both of you. Since 2022, AP+ has been working towards its aspiration to inspire trust in the products and offerings that AP+ operates and to play its role in the ever-increasing complexity of frauds and scams that are impacting so many people across Australia. While only two years old as an integrated entity, our trusted brands have a history stretching back decades.

Since 2022, AP+ has been working towards its aspiration to inspire trust in the products and offerings that it operates and to play its role in the ever-increasing complexity of fraud and scams that are impacting so many people across Australia. So, Catherine, I'll start with you first as I think it would be great for the audience to hear what trust means to you and any examples of how you have seen trust or a lack thereof create a real tangible difference in business.

01:30 Catherine: Good morning, Dave and great honour to be the inaugural guests on your podcast, in fact the first AP+ podcast. So, thank you. Trust is such a remarkable thing. It enables us to overcome uncertainty, to be vulnerable, to try something new or do something differently. And I think trust is effectively a contract that guarantees an outcome. It's a mixture of our highest hopes and greatest worries. And we need trust because we have to be able to count on others, to rely on others to act as they say that they will.

We need others to accept that we will act as we say that we will. And just this morning, I was thinking about how many times that I've had to rely on trust from just even trusting that the water out of the tap is safe to drink. That everyone would be driving on the left-hand side of the road, that they'd stop at the traffic lights, that when I used my EFTPOS card to pay for a coffee, that the process would be seamless, that the money would flow. 

02:27 And it also made me think about something I did last night, which was to look for an Airbnb and think, gosh, that's wild. Not that long ago, if you said, I'm going to go to the other side of the world, stay in the room of someone's house that I don't know, that no one I know knows, people would think you're mad. But how trust manifests and is used is changing. 

So I guess, it's really, to me, the glue that holds society together. There's a terrific author and thinker on trust called Rachel Botzman that I really enjoy reading, and she talks about it being a sort of magical social elixir. At the start of this year, start of every year, I think it is that there's the Edelman Trust barometer that comes out. I think it's released at the World Economic Forum in Davos. And this year, actually, the whole theme of the World Economic Forum was rebuilding trust. 

03:19 And I gather that the conversations were around the idea of leading with integrity and the different aspects of trust. So they focused on trust fundamental drivers of transparency, consistency and accountability, and that with trust we get optimism and reliance, innovation and prosperity.

I think that they chose this theme shows that there has been a loss of trust, a lack of faith and confidence in the system itself. But the reason for mentioning the Edelman Trust barometer is that their sort of takeaway in their report was that trust defines effectively an organisation's or a society's licence to operate, to lead and succeed. That trust is the foundation that allows an organisation to take responsible risk, and, if it makes mistakes, to recover and rebound from them. 

04:12 And for a business especially, lasting trust is our strongest insurance against competitive disruption. It's the antidote to consumer indifference and the best path to continued growth, because without trust, credibility and reputation can be threatened. So the things we've already done so many times today encapsulate so much, and hopefully also what we do at AP plus every day, millions of times.

04:37 Dave: So, trust is critically important for business, then and critically important for AP+.

04:41 Catherine: Completely.

04:43 Dave: So, Lynne, I'd be interested to know what trust means to you and the impact trust has played on how AP+ has come together as a relatively new organisation over the last two and a half years.

04:53 Lynn: Excellent. Thanks, Dave. And it's wonderful to be here with both you and Catherine and Catherine and I always learn so much from your comments. So, thank you for opening up. For me, trust is really simple. It's about honouring your commitments and following through and doing what you say you're going to do. And Dave, you would know at the leadership team level, I've got a kind of motto of closing the loop.

05:15 Dave: Yep. 

05:16 Lynn: And I think that's important for the basics of trust, letting people know that you know where you're at with some commitment that you've made, whether you've got it and you're honouring that commitment. And I think it's okay to be able to say, you know, it's still on the list, it's not done. But I think that just builds so much goodwill and trust and it's been hugely important at AP+, particularly if you think about any merger situation, there is always fear that can creep in to the conversation. 

So, the thing that I've really been focused on in our first two years for our internal stakeholders and all of our employees, is to make sure that we are absolutely transparent on where things are up to, particularly as we've been rolling out new organisational structures and setting our strategy and just keeping people really up to date with what is happening. And I think that's fundamental to building trust in our organisation and helping alleviate the fear that can creep in in any amalgamation.

06:13 And dare I say, we've definitely had to overcome that to make sure that we can get people on board with our vision, our purpose and our strategy. And I'm really happy with the progress we've made to date. But I think for a leader to build trust, I think, first of all, you've got to be competent. People need to know that you are capable and got the right hands at the wheel. 

They also need to know that you are empathetic, that you understand what they are going through. But most importantly, I think fundamental to building trust as a leader is being authentic. Authentic, transparent, owning what you know and be vulnerable enough to say what it is you don't know, but that you have it and you are working on it.

06:51 Dave: Yep. I can certainly vouch at the leadership level. We do have that closing that circle, and you certainly hold us accountable for that. So, just a follow up question for you, Lynne, AP+ has a broad stakeholder group from government to banks to major retailers. How does trust play a role in how you think about and work with this diverse group of stakeholders?

07:09 Lynn: Yeah, we do have a very unique and diverse group of stakeholders and I think if I think about a great outcome would be that we are aligned in what we were doing. And I always say that that diversity of stakeholders can be our superpower in terms of how helping us succeed as an organisation.

As a member-based organisation, trust is just vital. You know, walking hand in hand with our members to deliver for their end users is essential and is, you know, what we're here to do. And I think trust is just non-negotiable in that relationship and we're working towards it, particularly through your team, Dave, in commercial, I mean, I think that's what we're all striving for each and every day with our member interactions. 

07:53 From a government point of view and from a regulatory point of view, there are a lot of eyes on payments in this country and we need to make sure that we, again, are in lockstep. And that comes with having a trusted foundation and great working relationships.

08:06 Dave: Yeah. So internal trust, employee trust is important, therefore that trust is how we take out our process.

08:10 Lynn: Absolutely. I think I've always said in our team that you can't be something outside of the organisation that you aren't internally. So, you can't portray yourself to be a trusted organisation if you actually don't have that internally with your employees. So, I think the two things do go hand in hand.

08:28 Dave: Great, thank you. So, Catherine, integrity is often seen as a cornerstone of trust. In your experience, how does AP+ safeguard its integrity, especially in challenging situations where it might be under scrutiny?

08:40 Catherine: Look, you're so right. It really is the cornerstone of trust as you say. Integrity is doing the right thing in the right way. And Lynn's mentioned what integrity is and how you deliver on it, consistency, being reliable and predictable, following through on our commitments, transparency, accountability, having a long-term focus and then all wrapped up and underpinned by ethical behaviour and purpose. 

So, at AP+, I think every single person who's part of the organisation, I'd like to think, and I genuinely believe, is focused on being proactive in these areas, that we are all focused on building secure networks and trusted products. The environment in which we're doing that is dynamic.

09:25 So, we're also, as part of that, focused on strengthening protection. Not just that your payment gets delivered when it's meant to and in the right amounts, or that you receive your payment, but that it will be safe. And so as part of that, we're very focused on things like frauds and scams. So in order to deliver on this, part of our raison d'etre, it's in our founding documents, is being innovative so as to remove complexity, simplify things, reduce costs and be easy to work with, and that all goes back to integrity.

09:58 Dave: And so, Catherine, you mentioned around fraud and scams, and it's obviously been in an evolving landscape with technology changes and fraudsters get more sophisticated. Lynn, could you shed some light on the current trends in frauds and scams that you're seeing impacting Australians and how AP+ is responding to these challenges?

10:17 Lynn: Yeah, happy to, Dave. And it's interesting, as we live more and more of our lives online, for convenience and a better experience, we have to be super conscious that we are introducing new risk into our lives as we do that. I think one of the stats that most people would have heard many times is that in 2022, Australians lost over $3 billion to frauds and scams. 

The footnote to that is only 70% of Australians actually report. So there is an embarrassment factor or something else that keeps people from reporting frauds and scams. But when you add that extra 30%, the numbers get staggering. We have seen some positive reduction in scams over the last six months, year on year.

11:02 However, we cannot be complacent. We know that criminals are getting more and more clever and trying new ways, and I think we often liken it to whack-a-mole, as soon as you knock down one sort of scam strategy or fraud strategy, another will pop up. I think it's pretty clear that no single company can take this on on their own. 

However, at AP+, we really want to make sure that we are doing our part. We do play a unique role here in Australia as the domestic payments operator, and so we are investing in uplifting our capability around fraud monitoring. We are working with the industry around the development and rollout of a confirmation of payee solution, which will be game-changing, I think, for individuals to make sure they're really clear on who they're paying and payments aren't being misdirected.

11:54 We also are doing our part to educate on the role of products like PayID and PayTo, and we've also invested heavily in a digital identity exchange called ConnectID, which is really around supporting that data minimization which is so important to protecting individuals from data theft. 

So, we are definitely wanting to play our role in the centre, but I'm super-conscious that we are not in this alone and we therefore won't be the sole provider. It is about the industry coming together and it's also a global issue, and so we need to make sure that we are staying educated and connected with our global peers to make sure that we're kind of all kind of walking forward together on this issue.

12:34 Dave: Yeah. I mean, as you say, $3 billion is a huge number, really impacting Australians. And there was an industry strat recently, so the confirmation of pay solution in the UK, which was launched about four or five years ago just past 2 billion verifications. So it's great to see that's coming to Australia in the future.

12:51 Lynn: Yeah. And we've worked and had many a session to discuss, particularly in the UK and other areas, so that we are building a confirmation of pay solution here that takes on that knowledge and the learnings from around the world.

13:04 Dave: And you talked about ConnectID then, how do you see this initiative helping to strengthen the public's trust in data privacy, particularly a time when recent data breaches have impacted millions Australians?

13:16 Lynn: Yes, it's a very timely issue. ConnectID is a national digital identity exchange and it's built around the principles of consumer choice, privacy and most importantly, data minimization. It will eliminate the need for customers to take photocopies of vital information like a passport or a driver's licence and upload them, or even worse, hand them over to a total stranger. ConnectID will allow information that is already stored with a trusted provider like your bank, as an example, to share certain attributes about you in order to prove your identity. 

And we're really excited about this new offering and believe it's going to go a long way to support in the fight against frauds and identity theft, as it's going to mean that there is less data sharing across Australia.

14:10 Dave: I think the major banks obviously being involved around that, particularly, I think consumers in Australia have a strong affinity to trust with those banks, so it will help build trust with that.

14:20 Lynn: Yeah, I think that's right. And we did a lot of research before the commencement or throughout the process of designing ConnectID to understand, you know, who Australians trust. And you're right, that research showed that you already trust your banks with your money, with many aspects of your savings, with your mortgages, and so it was a natural extension to trust them with holding that important data.

14:43 Dave: I mean, it should certainly help build trust as that product scales. Catherine, how important is communication in maintaining public trust?

14:52 Catherine: It's essential. Communicating with our people, with our members, with our customers, with our users, with the broader community. It's not negotiable. By being upfront on what we believe our purpose is, what we're here to do, that's how we help underpin and gain trust. What comes with that, though, is an obligation to deliver what's promised, to admit mistakes, to listen to different views and consider them thoughtfully. 

We aim to foster open communication and create a transparent environment, not just internally with our own people. That is critical, as we've touched on, but with our members, with our participants, with the broader ecosystem, because without that, we lose trust.

15:39 Dave: So, final question for both of you. What's excited you about the future of payments and digital identity in Australia, catherine, I'll let you go first.

15:45 Catherine: So, the bit that excites me the most is the position that AP+ sits in, that trusted position in this country, and how our team here at AP+ is grasping that opportunity with the understanding of the trust that's being placed in them, in all of us. 

I'm really proud of how the team at AP+ works with our members and in doing so, has achieved so much. Lynn's mentioned a few of the things that have happened in the last two years. That's a very young organisation, from PayID through to ConnectID. But also the sort of core bread and butter we can't forget, which is continuing to operate secure and reliable, Osko, BPAY, real-time payment transactions day in and day out. 

16:33 So, I'm really excited about the collaboration across AP+, our members and the country, which is the secret sauce, that collaboration is the secret sauce to enabling us to make it easier to have safer, cheaper payments for all Australians, to make it easier for them to make and receive payments.

16:56 Dave: Yeah. So really, in the ecosystem with which we operate, we have to make sure that everyone's held to a high standard and holding trust to a high standard as well. And Lynn, same question for you.

17:06 Lynn: I mean, the world of payments continues to evolve I think in an effort to provide a better consumer experience. Most people never think about a payment until it actually doesn't work. And we have seen so much innovation. I also believe that the introduction of real-time payments in Australia through the NPP means that we're still just at the early stages of that innovation. 

And with digital identity, we're excited about the choice that this provides citizens and how they identify themselves with strong privacy and data protection guardrails. I think there's an evolving focus on convenience, safety and security, while also considering interoperability, and I think that's exciting to think about.

17:50 Interoperability across sectors in terms of payment and identity, but also, I think eventually across borders, internationally. And we are at AP+ right in the centre of this and one of our goals is to continue to enable and encourage that innovation and I think all of these developments promise to transform transactions, making them safer, faster and more user-friendly.

18:18 Dave: I think you're so right. A consumer just expects a payment to go through and it's only at the point where it doesn't go through that an issue happens. And I think all the work we in the payments industry have to do behind the scenes to make sure that it's secure, we reduce cyber threats and all those sorts of things is absolutely key and a critical role for us at AP+. 

So, thank you, Catherine and Lynn for sharing your time and insights with our listeners today. I'm sure they found this chat as stimulating and thought-provoking as I did. So thank you.

Thank you for listening to the AP+ Point of View podcast. Be sure to share it with your colleagues. For more information and the latest news and views from Australian Payments Plus, visit www.auspayplus.com.au and follow us on LinkedIn.